Jump to content


Photo

General Boss Design


  • Please log in to reply
7 replies to this topic

#1 FrenchTom

FrenchTom

    Spud

  • Moderators

  • PipPip
  • 23 posts

Posted 03 September 2016 - 07:56 PM

Big big thanks to all of you for playing Earthlock, as this is the first major game by Snowcastle it means a lot to see so many people enjoying the game. As lead designer its also makes me nervous to see many people really struggling with the bosses. I really dont want anyone to give up, but beat that Boss. So thanks to all those that came back after rage quitting a boss, we have all been there.

 

I really just want to explain the general design decisions behind the bosses.

 

The vast majority of the bosses in the game are weak to specific strategies and once those are discovered they can become quite easy. We didn't want the bosses to just be another mob with more health, but an exercise in strategy. I wanted the bosses to be memorable fights and yes tough, thats what makes beating them feel good. An easy/straight forward boss can feel a bit disappointing, one is not too bad but a string of them can feel a little flat. Consequently finding the correct strategy can be very challenging and frustrating. A side effect of our Boss design approach is that the bosses can appear a lot harder than they actually are and players feel that they need to go and grind a lot of levels to defeat them, which is hopefully not true, but instead are maybe a level off or are just using the wrong strategy. As the game progresses and the parties abilities widen, different strategies can be used against bosses. Given the flexibility of the Talent board we are seeing people defeat bosses in ways we never expected, which is AWESOME.

 

A few general tips when fighting bosses.

  • By design the majority of bosses have a save point near them so they are easy to access if you happen to be defeated.  So dont get too disheartened, you will not have to fight your way to get to the boss. Remember to save if you see a save statue
  • Be prepared, take plenty of potions and make sure you have the most powerful healing potions equipped.
  • Use the Talents wisely, switch them up to cater for the specific bosses. eg Magic Defense against a magical boss. Borrow from the reserve party members if need be.
  • When fighting a boss pay specific attention to its reactions to certain attacks or abilities you use. Certain bosses counter certain abilities either with attacks or abilities of their own.
  • Pay attention to the damage applied from your attacks. 
  • Also pay specific attention to their attacks and think about the best party configuration to counter them. At some points it is wise to switch up the party. In some cases its the defensive abilities of the party members that matter not the offensive.
  • All members of the battle party get the full XP if dead when the boss is defeated, so dont worry about resurrecting to get the XP. This is not true, for normal mob fights. In a normal mob fight XP is given based on how many turns of the battle the party member was alive for.

I hope this helps but if you are really stuck, we have started to post up boss strategies. If there is a boss you are stuck at and there is no guide, please ask. 

 

 

 



#2 kraylus

kraylus

    Seed

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 4 posts

Posted 03 September 2016 - 10:02 PM

I have never liked relying on healing potions in an RPG. At least, not in the way you describe. To me, it feels as if healing potions are needed on the regular, there is something wrong with the design.

I got to a point, shortly after I first teamed up with Gnart, where their bond was high enough I could use Regen S every other random battle and grind levels as long as I wanted and would never need a potion.

This strat worked well, til Olia came along and mob strats changed drastically. I found myself needing to have a few pots here and there.

I get where you're going with bosses, and I totally dig it. But I do not believe that massive grinding should be necessary to overcome the Gobking. I have already spent a good five or six hours collectively getting high levels and increasing bonds for sweet perks. How much more should I have to do for Olia to not get nearly one-shotted from GKs rage attack?

No good strategy can save you from that!

Other bosses weren't too terrible. I had to rework a few things for the fight at Frogmire. He kicked my ass the first time.

And why is speed such a bullshit stat? If I dont keep Haste on Olia or the other guy constantly I can't really get into battles with more than four or five mobs. Why does a stupid little pink rat get to attack three times to my one? And why all the AoE? Where's MY AoE??

It's like you set out to make the game near impossible on purpose :( Sort of reminds me of Beyond the Beyond...

I really want to like the game, honest! Its like a cross between Grandia and Legend of Legaia. There's just so many quirks and whatnot to overcome. It's almost not worth it.

#3 DarqStalker

DarqStalker

    Seed

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 5 posts

Posted 03 September 2016 - 11:26 PM

I like the fact you guys are trying to make boss encounters unique and making it so you have to find the strategy that works buy changing talents, party members, tactics, etc.

That's fine and all, but the thing that drags me down is the preparation and time it takes to set it all up. When I find a boss, I think,, "Oh great, now I'm going to have to go into each person's talent board, make sure everything is good, remove some, add some, make sure they are the right ones. Make sure I"m bonded with the right character so I get perks I want. Make sure I have the abilities I want.  Now I have to do that with the other 3 characters.  Next make sure I have enough potions, etc.  It takes a bit and brings you out of the game, at least for me. I'm no expert so I'm not sure what kind of solution there would be for this or a mechanic that would make this all easier.

 

I'm already trying to level everyone up to max and max out their bonds and making sure their talents are set up the right way just for normal mobs out in the open.  I really don't want to have to micromanage my talent board and pairs every few fights.  Plus, I have to go grow plants, make ammo, make talents, make potions, etc. Lots of micromanaging. 

 

I get you probably want to create things to do so players don't get bored, and that's great!  I, personally, just want explore an intersting world while enjoying an amazing story. And level up a character that gains abilities with levels.

 

Edit: Just got to Franir -

"By design the majority of bosses have a save point near them so they are easy to access if you happen to be defeated.  So dont get too disheartened, you will not have to fight your way to get to the boss."

 

There isn't a save point next to the boss. You have to fight your way down a long hallway. By the time I got to the end, my HP was low but I found a chest so decided to open it. Well, boss time! Wasn't prepared at all. Quickly died so lost about half an hours work making it to that point. That sort of stuff is a little disheartening. Now I know I'm going to have to spend another half or or so making it back, healing up b/c everything seems to do around 600 damage.  Does Taika's Magic Defense ability work? Says it stacks too but I keep getting hit for around 600 by the Blue lantern's ability. And I have at least 3 magic talents on each character, maybe that's not enough.  So now I'm back to micromanaging again.



#4 brandonwiker

brandonwiker

    Seed

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 6 posts

Posted 04 September 2016 - 02:20 AM

I like the fact you guys are trying to make boss encounters unique and making it so you have to find the strategy that works buy changing talents, party members, tactics, etc.
That's fine and all, but the thing that drags me down is the preparation and time it takes to set it all up. When I find a boss, I think,, "Oh great, now I'm going to have to go into each person's talent board, make sure everything is good, remove some, add some, make sure they are the right ones. Make sure I"m bonded with the right character so I get perks I want. Make sure I have the abilities I want.  Now I have to do that with the other 3 characters.  Next make sure I have enough potions, etc.  It takes a bit and brings you out of the game, at least for me. I'm no expert so I'm not sure what kind of solution there would be for this or a mechanic that would make this all easier.
 
I'm already trying to level everyone up to max and max out their bonds and making sure their talents are set up the right way just for normal mobs out in the open.  I really don't want to have to micromanage my talent board and pairs every few fights.  Plus, I have to go grow plants, make ammo, make talents, make potions, etc. Lots of micromanaging. 
 
I get you probably want to create things to do so players don't get bored, and that's great!  I, personally, just want explore an intersting world while enjoying an amazing story. And level up a character that gains abilities with levels.
 
Edit: Just got to Franir -
"By design the majority of bosses have a save point near them so they are easy to access if you happen to be defeated.  So dont get too disheartened, you will not have to fight your way to get to the boss."
 
There isn't a save point next to the boss. You have to fight your way down a long hallway. By the time I got to the end, my HP was low but I found a chest so decided to open it. Well, boss time! Wasn't prepared at all. Quickly died so lost about half an hours work making it to that point. That sort of stuff is a little disheartening. Now I know I'm going to have to spend another half or or so making it back, healing up b/c everything seems to do around 600 damage.  Does Taika's Magic Defense ability work? Says it stacks too but I keep getting hit for around 600 by the Blue lantern's ability. And I have at least 3 magic talents on each character, maybe that's not enough.  So now I'm back to micromanaging again.


Before I go on about Franir, I would just like to concur that bosses didn't seem SUPER hard until Gobking. Suddenly every boss fight is constant potion spam and getting one attack in every once in a while.

And Franir is a pain in my buttcheeks. I fought him at lvl 10, and no contest, I was spanked. He's getting multiple turns, sleeping half my team and bleeding the others out in two turns, or just using cheap a** AoE flamethrower that auto burns whoever can't bleed. The sequence to get to franir is very irritating to do 4+ times....

Went back to the grind for an hour, now at lvl 12 (except the dog character, lv 10) with 3 star bonds or better, AS WELL AS EVERY SINGLE ABILITY, PERK, AND STAT USED. I literally have TP waiting in queue to be used because I have no more perks/stats to fill any of my characters with. I even went and crafted some fairly useless ones just to get some TP in use. Go back through that sequence to meet franir again. Same BS as before, he takes multi turns and puts half of my team to sleep and bleeds/burns out the others in 2-3 hits.

I'm almost at a loss. Sleep seems very debilitating, and I don't think I even have any tools to combat it. Gnart's cure does not cure sleep, and based on the battle queue, a sleeping character is totally removed from combat until the enemy hits him. It's extremely debilitating to basically have the boss take 3 out of every 4 turns in battle because my characters that were due to take a turn are now asleep, and I have no idea how to stop it. Franir is confuse immune and fire immune, but I haven't tried silence or sand throw, although I seriously doubt they will work, and I'm not in the mood to go back and try atm.

#5 DPack

DPack

    Barnacle

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 46 posts

Posted 04 September 2016 - 02:56 AM

Sleeping character wake up when they are hit, and you can hit your own teammates (I'd recommend using Gnart's club, and Taika's bite for this, as they do the least amount of damage). I highly suggest keeping Gnart and Ive in separate bonds, so that you can use both of their Special heals independently of one another. Gnart & Amon's bond grants them immunity to bleed, which is a HUGE advantage against Franir. As for the walk back to the boss, which I admit is a bit irritating, go back outside after you've opened the chest in the hole in the wall just past the yellow gate. It's possible to walk around the enemies and skip them entirely.

I beat Franir with my party between lvls 13-15. I charged up my Special meters beforehand, and potion-ed my health to full at the elevator. My bonds & stances were: Amon (Blaster) & Gnart (Mage), and Taika (Predator) & Ive (Scout). My offense consisted almost entirely of Amon using Electro Blast ++, with Taika occasionally using Water Bomb (it's pretty damaging against a single target). I strongly recommend getting these 2 bonds to 5-star.

 

Gnart's entire job was clubbing people who fell asleep, and casting Regen. On the rare occasion that everyone is awake and at full health, cast haste on Amon. When the party's overall health starts getting low, use Super Mage and spend every turn casting Regen S.

 

Taika should be biting people who fall asleep, and using the strongest healing potion you have on whoever needs it the most. On the rare occasion that everyone is awake and at full health, cast Water Bomb on Franir.

 

I used Ive as little more than a potion dispenser, helping out when Gnart couldn't keep up. Use her First Aid, and First Aid Drop as a back-up heal.

 

Amon is going to be your main offense, use your strongest ammo type against him (anything except fire is fine, I only used Electro because it was the only ++ ammo I had) and toss out potions when needed. Keep your party's HP in mind. It's better to do no damage in a turn, than it is hurt him at the cost of having to rez someone

 

90% of this fight was managing my party's HP and keeping them awake. Watch the turn order carefully, and assess the risk of whatever action you want to take. I'm sure that this strategy isn't the best one by far, but it's the one that got me through the fight.


Kick him in the nuts, Olia!


#6 brandonwiker

brandonwiker

    Seed

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 6 posts

Posted 04 September 2016 - 03:21 AM

Sleeping character wake up when they are hit, and you can hit your own teammates (I'd recommend using Gnart's club, and Taika's bite for this, as they do the least amount of damage). I highly suggest keeping Gnart and Ive in separate bonds, so that you can use both of their Special heals independently of one another. Gnart & Amon's bond grants them immunity to bleed, which is a HUGE advantage against Franir. As for the walk back to the boss, which I admit is a bit irritating, go back outside after you've opened the chest in the hole in the wall just past the yellow gate. It's possible to walk around the enemies and skip them entirely.
I beat Franir with my party between lvls 13-15. I charged up my Special meters beforehand, and potion-ed my health to full at the elevator. My bonds & stances were: Amon (Blaster) & Gnart (Mage), and Taika (Predator) & Ive (Scout). My offense consisted almost entirely of Amon using Electro Blast ++, with Taika occasionally using Water Bomb (it's pretty damaging against a single target). I strongly recommend getting these 2 bonds to 5-star.
 
Gnart's entire job was clubbing people who fell asleep, and casting Regen. On the rare occasion that everyone is awake and at full health, cast haste on Amon. When the party's overall health starts getting low, use Super Mage and spend every turn casting Regen S.
 
Taika should be biting people who fall asleep, and using the strongest healing potion you have on whoever needs it the most. On the rare occasion that everyone is awake and at full health, cast Water Bomb on Franir.
 
I used Ive as little more than a potion dispenser, helping out when Gnart couldn't keep up. Use her First Aid, and First Aid Drop as a back-up heal.
 
Amon is going to be your main offense, use your strongest ammo type against him (anything except fire is fine, I only used Electro because it was the only ++ ammo I had) and toss out potions when needed. Keep your party's HP in mind. It's better to do no damage in a turn, than it is hurt him at the cost of having to rez someone
 
90% of this fight was managing my party's HP and keeping them awake. Watch the turn order carefully, and assess the risk of whatever action you want to take. I'm sure that this strategy isn't the best one by far, but it's the one that got me through the fight.


Very nice. I will try this, thank you for being descriptive. I really don't like that boss fights basically force half of your team to heal/potion duty, it seems like the bosses were poorly tested/scaled. I didn't even know you could hit teammates, I guess club has earned it's purpose lol. I don't think I found electro spuds II yet... I have fire spud II... ugh.

I would like to add, franir is immune to silence, fire attacks, confuse, sand throw, and any regular melee attacks (well, he is in the absolutely irritating flying enemy catagory.) Just went into a battle with nothing in mind other than inflicting status to him. The only thing that seemed to work was mark target....yay?

For the devs, I don't mean to sound mean or unfairly critical, just my personal irritations with the game. Really, it has been very fun, but the sheer amount of AoE enemies and super OP bosses are just killing it.

#7 Jon

Jon

    Spud

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 15 posts

Posted 05 September 2016 - 09:50 AM

All I wanted to say to the Devs is that so far, I have enjoyed how the bosses I've encountered (I think only 3 or 4 so far, I'm pretty fresh into the game) are more than just higher-hp mobs. It isn't a bad thing to have a tough boss that you don't beat the first time, one that makes you have to rethink your strategy or come up with entirely new approaches. In my opinion, the bosses so far have been fun battles and the difficulty is appropriate.

 

Keep up the good work!! The game is amazing so far. It has such a nostalgic Final Fantasy feel to it in all the right ways while still being very unique and modern. I have been telling everyone to check it out! 



#8 Maehlice

Maehlice

    Seed

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 1 posts

Posted 09 October 2016 - 05:05 PM

I'm uninstalling after this, because it feels like poor design to me.

During the natural progression of a game, difficult spots should have multiple solutions -- chiefly grinding OR strategy. Unfortunately, it seems by design that every boss requires unnatural grinding, a fair amount of strategy, and a LOT of luck.

Pretty lame. I sure hope your next game is better.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users